Mike


Dedicated to the Passionate Pursuit of the Glory of God.



Puritan Catechism Question of the Week
Q 16. Into what estate did the fall bring mankind?
A. The fall brought mankind into a state of sin and misery.

Name: Mike
Location: California, United States
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Monday, October 31, 2005

Happy Reformation Day!

It is my true conviction that this day,1517, God used a man by the name of Martain Luther to spark what resulted in the restoration of the Gospel. We needed a Reformation those hundreds of years ago and I believe we need one today. May we all be as bold and yet fearful as that great man. Let us all return to our knees and ask for a revival greater than the Reformation, yea, greater even than that at Pentecost.

In Christ alone,
mike

17 Comments:

Blogger Brad Meyer said...

hey, saw your post over at Pyro's nonsense page- thought of this verse- interested in your thoughts in regards to what you'd said about charismatics' view of scripture:
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Is Christ Himself belittling scripture? Pretty sure He's saying that all these geniouses pinning their hopes on winning the scripture memorization contest on Judgment day are up a creek.

9:21 PM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

9:29 PM  
Blogger evanmay said...

Hey buddy.

9:37 PM  
Blogger evanmay said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

9:38 PM  
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Brad,
I think you are aware that I am not a cessationist. Having said that, I would certainly not align myself with Phil on this issue.
However, I would also not align myself with the Pentecostal movement which has (in my opinion) made the equal but opposite error.

Your horrific view of John 5:39 simply confirms my point that some charismatics have a terrible view of scripture.
Jesus in the Gospels and the Apostles in Acts use a very common theme with the Jews. They speak of Moses, the Law, Scripture, Etc. and claim that they do NOT believe it because the scriptures Testify about Jesus yet they have rejected him.

If you simply continue to read this portion of scripture then you come to verse 46: "For if you believed Moses you would believe Me, for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings how will you believe my words".

What Jesus is obviously showing is that while they believe that they are searching the scriptures to find eternal life, they are not. They are missing the message of the text. They have read their own theology into the text. In fact, I would dare say (and you will have to forgive me) that you are doing the same thing. You have taken your views and read them into this passage when the passage obviously teaches nothing remotely close to your views.
Jesus is absolutely not setting aside scripture. He is saying that they are not truly understanding the scriptures. Jesus is calling them to a higher, better view of the scriptures rather than a lower view. Again I must say, If Jesus were to post on this blog, it is my conviction that he would encourage you similarly.

10:31 PM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

Mike,
And what did you do with Jesus' conveying to them: "in them [scriptures] ye think ye have eternal life." One can not wiggle away from the explicit meaning: the scriptures do not necessarily contain eternal life.

We do not have eternal life in the scriptures. We have eternal life in Christ- the person.

"they are they which testify of me"- notice He does not say, "I am here to tell you about the scriptures," but "the scriptures are here to tell you about ME." If the Old Testament was sufficient, why did the PERSON of Jesus need to come? To show us the full meaning of them is only knowable on a personal level. Then, if reading the New Testament was all that is necessary, why did the Holy Spirit have to come?

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Jhn 14:17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you INTO ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1Jo 5:6 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Why repeatedly does God's word, now elevate the Spirit as the confirmer of Truth?

9:39 AM  
Blogger evanmay said...

Brad Meyer,

As a Charismatic, let me tell you that you are on dangerous grounds if you are denying the sufficiency of Scripture as the rule of faith for the believer. My pastor, who is also a Charismatic, said, "Prophecy is dangerous utterance if it is not bound by the word of God." Christ (who is Truth)is the subject of the Scriptures. The subject of the Scriptures is truth, and they contain the infallible truth about Christ. Scripture calls itself "God-breathed." New Testament prophecy is never called "God-breathed" anywhere in the Bible.

I certainly do not doubt the Spirit's daily role in teaching truth to the believer. I love prophetic gifting. However, even Scripture tells us to test prophecy against Scripture. The fact that it is from the Holy Spirit is proven by its conformity to the Scriptures.

Is prophecy vital for the believer? Certainly. But is it necessary in order for truth to be learned? Absolutely not. The Scriptures are sufficient.

Evan May
www.veritasredux.blogspot.com

11:40 AM  
Blogger Mike Garner said...

And what did you do with Jesus' conveying to them: "in them [scriptures] ye think ye have eternal life." One can not wiggle away from the explicit meaning: the scriptures do not necessarily contain eternal life.

I suppose repeating myself is necessary. Of course there is nothing magical about having the scriptures in your possession that guarantees salvation. However, you miss Jesus' entire point. He was claiming that He was in the scriptures but that the people missed him ... and thus missed the scriptures. Again, this passages Raises the value of scripture rather than diminishing it as you would suggest.

We do not have eternal life in the scriptures. We have eternal life in Christ- the person.

Of course, and it is a terrible strawman to even suggest than anyone disagrees.


"they are they which testify of me"- notice He does not say, "I am here to tell you about the scriptures," but "the scriptures are here to tell you about ME." If the Old Testament was sufficient, why did the PERSON of Jesus need to come? To show us the full meaning of them is only knowable on a personal level. Then, if reading the New Testament was all that is necessary, why did the Holy Spirit have to come?


This is just a continuation of your strawman. Of course Jesus is necessary. Not one single person has said otherwise in this entire debate (on the several blogs).


Why repeatedly does God's word, now elevate the Spirit as the confirmer of Truth?

Well, considering your presence on Reformed blogs this answer should be obvious. However, it already appears that you do not carefully read what people say in response to you so I can understand the question. This goes back to what I said earlier: "There is nothing magical about having the scriptures in your possession that guarantees Salvation". The Spirit illuminating the mind and changing the heart is necessary to properly understand the scriptures. Consult Paul's epistle to the Corinthians and you will see that the unspiritual man cannot comprehend spiritual matters. Therefore, it is necessary for the Spirit and the Word to go hand in hand. Not only have you incorrectly elevated the Spirit, but you have completely warped the Spirit of the biblical role He performs. Christianity, as you have repeatedly stated, points always to the Word, not some mysticism which you are attempting to suggest.

1:19 PM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

evanmay/mike,
what i do care about is a great bunch of people presuming to know the first thing about God because they've studied Spurgeon. I will give up this apparently futile outreach to people who need no fresh communication from God because their text is sufficient- absolute unequaled arrogance in light of what He did to commune with you. I care what God says in scripture and to me through His Spirit.
What does God have to do to convince you that He wants EXTREME intimacy with you via His Spirit (in agreement with His Word)? Come to earth and die for you? Promise to give you His Spirit which will lead you into ALL TRUTH? Lead you into ALL TRUTH? Lead you into ALL TRUTH? For some reason, you choose to limit "Lead you into all truth" to mean "Understand the Scriptures" only. Why do you limit God and not simply believe the Scripture "the Spirit of truth...will guide you INTO ALL TRUTH"
The scripture is "sufficient" in the sense that God's written revelation to man has concluded.
Scripture is not "sufficient" to save someone unless the Spirit of God lives in them through their faith in Christ.

12:02 AM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

evanmay,
no disrespect, but why are you quoting your pastor to me? quote God's Word that you speak for. don't quote Spurgeon. don't quote Mike. don't quote Pyro. quote God to make your arguments.

12:04 AM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

mike,
the Spirit's only function is to illuminate the scripture? This is all He does? If not, what else does He do? Is the Third person of the Trinity kept out of the present age or might He have an interest in communicating with us today? If He communicates with us today, does He say anything other than to clarify scripture? Does He care what blogs I write at?

12:13 AM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

Correction:
A knowledge of the Scripture is not "sufficient" to save someone unless the Spirit of God lives in them through their faith in Christ.

1:50 AM  
Blogger evanmay said...

Brad Meyer,

Personally, I do not think it is fair that this topic is dominating Mike's comments. This is about a topic over at Pyro's webpage, and you have continually debated the subject here. First of all, who here has quoted Spurgeon? Or Pyro? We have not done so here.

Believe me, Mike and I are both convinced that the Holy Spirit desires to dwell within us. Neither of us has denied this. The Holy Spirit has indwelt us since our regeneration, and He continually desire to fill us that we might exalt Christ.

Do you or do you not accept the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, Brad? First, let me clarify what the doctrine is because you seem to like to misrepresent it. The doctrine means that the Scriptures are sufficient; that they are the sole infallible rule of faith for the believer. However, it doesn't not mean that we can sit in a vacuum and read the Scriptures and be fine. God has given us the context of the local Church and the Holy Spirit. Both of these things are vital to the Christian's life. If he merely reads and does not live, then he has missed the point. Nevertheless, the Scriptures as an infallible rule of faith is what the doctrine of Sola Scriptura promotes.

Evan May.
www.VeritasRedux.blogspot.com

9:32 AM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

sorry if this debate shouldn't be here...and not being reformed I can't accurately answer your question evan may because I don't completely understand the exact terminology that's used in your explanation. but let me try my best..
"Scriptures are sufficient; that they are the sole infallible rule of faith for the believer"- ? The presence of the Holy Spirit in man via faith in Christ is that which determines his salvation in my theology. the scripture is that which leads to faith in Christ then leads to indwelling of Holy Spirit. Don't know specifically what "rule of faith" means in reformed terminology (wow, this is like translating into foreign language).
"we can [not] sit in a vacuum and read the Scriptures and be fine. God has given us the context of the local Church and the Holy Spirit." - agreed, but concerned about your terminology "context of Church and Holy Spirit"- seems like Holy spirit is secondary importance to scripture in your explanation.
"If he merely reads and does not live, then he has missed the point."- sounds like Faith vs. Works arguement- my stance, works are not necessary for salvation, but faith without works is dead so if you have no works, you have no faith.
"infallible rule of faith" means what precisely to you?

1:16 PM  
Blogger evanmay said...

Brad,

You are simply spamming. You should not post the same thing twice. I responded to your comment over at my page.

Evan May.

9:01 PM  
Blogger Brad Meyer said...

wow

9:52 PM  
Blogger Mike Garner said...

Brad,
"what i do care about is a great bunch of people presuming to know the first thing about God because they've studied Spurgeon. I will give up this apparently futile outreach to people who need no fresh communication from God because their text is sufficient"

Do you even see what you are claiming here? On the one hand you are rebuking some group of people who "think they know the first thing about God because they've studied Spurgeon" and then continue your rebuke by claiming they "need no fresh communication from God because their text is sufficient".

You cannot be mad at a group of people for BOTH A) Holding only to the scriptures and B) appealing to extra-biblical sources.


Also, if you do intent to give up this "futile debate" then I would hope you could do so by not spamming. I think that is a fair request to make.


"no disrespect, but why are you quoting your pastor to me? quote God's Word that you speak for. don't quote Spurgeon. don't quote Mike. don't quote Pyro. quote God to make your arguments."

Again, this does not make sense. On the one hand you want to claim that the Spirit is speaking every much apart from the scriptures as in the scriptures. On the other, you want appeals only to God's word. Please choose on or the other.

"Don't know specifically what "rule of faith" means in reformed terminology (wow, this is like translating into foreign language)."

It actually stems from the 2nd century AD from the latin phrase "regula fide". It basically means the essentials that are sufficient for Salvation and Orthodoxy. I would encourage you to study church history. Things like the "Rule of Faith" and "Sola Scriptura" are very important. You will gain far more by studying the way the church has viewed truth throughout the centuries then you will by searching for a mystical spirit who gives mystical revelations.


" sorry if this debate shouldn't be here..."

How do you claim to be sorry yet continue to post? If you are interested in a conversation where you read and consider what has been said and respond in an appropriate matter then I am fine with accomodating the discussion. If you plan to repeatedly spam your ideas in an attempt to barrel through the issue, then please take it elsewhere.

10:03 PM  

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